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For me, it's never a question of feeling or faith. For all we know, it
could be a mix of both and neither. Or none of them. Etc.
It's never wrong to be unsatisfied by the current research.
argumzio
On Jun 1, 2:58 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You all know if you search your feelings (as Darth would have put it, I'll
> do a little bit of nearding myself) that it's just a matter of time before
> we have definite proof that n-backing improves the ability to solve "more
> complex" problems they way you want it. Personally I stick to the biology of
> thinking and my personal experience.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 9:51 PM, ao <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I can say, based on the evidence available, that DNB only improves
> > on'es speed in solving matrix-style Gf-slanted problems and _not_
> > one's ability to solve problems that one had initially found more
> > difficult because one couldn't actually *figure out* the pattern.
>
> > argumzio
>
> > On Jun 1, 2:43 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Am I defending a flawed study? This study which I believe I called the
> > > 20-min version RAPM is proof of what Moody is claiming is wrong. Probably
> > > paid by the brain training Illuminati of course. I think it's funny that
> > you
> > > have these "nerd neurotic" almost aspberger-like raged resistance as soon
> > as
> > > I hit your sensitive spot, the fact that you censorship results that do
> > not
> > > match your rather narrow "nerd neurotic keyhole".
>
> > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Gwern, I am talking about the research I have posted here that you
> > very
> > > > > nicely avoid to deal with. The research done on speed RAPM, the
> > research
> > > > > done on "reasoning speed" and so on. Besides, even if half dropped
> > out,
> > > > > those who didn't improved more than chance can give them credit for.
>
> > > > You're seriously trying to defend such a flawed study. I can barely
> > > > believe it. This, among other things, is why I don't pay much
> > > > attention to you. (There's a lot of worthless discussion on this ML,
> > > > and I use the mute button liberally.)
>
> > > > Yes, you've posted a bunch of research of questionable relevance, all
> > > > of which that I bothered to read was about correlations - correlations
> > > > existing *before* any intervention like dual n-back. Which is exactly
> > > > what I've never contested, and adds nothing to the question of whether
> > > > dual n-back increases IQ or just speed on BOMAT/RAPM, and your belief
> > > > that they prove it is sheer question-begging. I have said all this
> > > > before.
>
> > > > --
> > > > gwern
> > > >http://www.gwern.net
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
> > > > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to brain-training@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > brain-training+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to brain-training@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > brain-training+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
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YAY Crazy Long Intervals
On Jun 1, 3:51 pm, Kurt <director.evcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey gang,
>
> To help beat the heat we will host Thursday morning speedwork at 6:00
> AM throughout the summer months. Meet us tomorrow for another round of
> fast ovals.
>
> Details:
>
> -McCarren Recycling Bins, north end of the track
> -6:00 AM
> -2 lap warm-up
>
> -2K @ 5K pace (find your pace:http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/cgi-bin/calc.pl)
> -two minute recovery
> -200m @ 5K pace - 20 seconds per mile
>
> Three reps, four-minute recovery between sets.
>
> See y'all bright and early!
>
> -Kurt
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Click here for REVISED contract award for solicitation
AG-DPAN-S-11-0142 for Whole Wheat Pancakes.
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I can say, based on the evidence available, that DNB only improves
on'es speed in solving matrix-style Gf-slanted problems and _not_
one's ability to solve problems that one had initially found more
difficult because one couldn't actually *figure out* the pattern.
argumzio
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 1, 2:43 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Am I defending a flawed study? This study which I believe I called the
> 20-min version RAPM is proof of what Moody is claiming is wrong. Probably
> paid by the brain training Illuminati of course. I think it's funny that you
> have these "nerd neurotic" almost aspberger-like raged resistance as soon as
> I hit your sensitive spot, the fact that you censorship results that do not
> match your rather narrow "nerd neurotic keyhole".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>
--> > wrote:
> > > Gwern, I am talking about the research I have posted here that you very
> > > nicely avoid to deal with. The research done on speed RAPM, the research
> > > done on "reasoning speed" and so on. Besides, even if half dropped out,
> > > those who didn't improved more than chance can give them credit for.
>
> > You're seriously trying to defend such a flawed study. I can barely
> > believe it. This, among other things, is why I don't pay much
> > attention to you. (There's a lot of worthless discussion on this ML,
> > and I use the mute button liberally.)
>
> > Yes, you've posted a bunch of research of questionable relevance, all
> > of which that I bothered to read was about correlations - correlations
> > existing *before* any intervention like dual n-back. Which is exactly
> > what I've never contested, and adds nothing to the question of whether
> > dual n-back increases IQ or just speed on BOMAT/RAPM, and your belief
> > that they prove it is sheer question-begging. I have said all this
> > before.
>
> > --
> > gwern
> >http://www.gwern.net
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to brain-training@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > brain-training+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
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argumzio
On Jun 1, 2:43 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Am I defending a flawed study? This study which I believe I called the
> 20-min version RAPM is proof of what Moody is claiming is wrong. Probably
> paid by the brain training Illuminati of course. I think it's funny that you
> have these "nerd neurotic" almost aspberger-like raged resistance as soon as
> I hit your sensitive spot, the fact that you censorship results that do not
> match your rather narrow "nerd neurotic keyhole".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Gwern, I am talking about the research I have posted here that you very
> > > nicely avoid to deal with. The research done on speed RAPM, the research
> > > done on "reasoning speed" and so on. Besides, even if half dropped out,
> > > those who didn't improved more than chance can give them credit for.
>
> > You're seriously trying to defend such a flawed study. I can barely
> > believe it. This, among other things, is why I don't pay much
> > attention to you. (There's a lot of worthless discussion on this ML,
> > and I use the mute button liberally.)
>
> > Yes, you've posted a bunch of research of questionable relevance, all
> > of which that I bothered to read was about correlations - correlations
> > existing *before* any intervention like dual n-back. Which is exactly
> > what I've never contested, and adds nothing to the question of whether
> > dual n-back increases IQ or just speed on BOMAT/RAPM, and your belief
> > that they prove it is sheer question-begging. I have said all this
> > before.
>
> > --
> > gwern
> >http://www.gwern.net
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to brain-training@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > brain-training+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
--
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To help beat the heat we will host Thursday morning speedwork at 6:00
AM throughout the summer months. Meet us tomorrow for another round of
fast ovals.
Details:
-McCarren Recycling Bins, north end of the track
-6:00 AM
-2 lap warm-up
-2K @ 5K pace (find your pace: http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/cgi-bin/calc.pl)
-two minute recovery
-200m @ 5K pace - 20 seconds per mile
Three reps, four-minute recovery between sets.
See y'all bright and early!
-Kurt
--
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You are subscribed to SD - Press Releases for USDA Farm Service Agency.
This information has recently been updated, and is now available. Having trouble viewing this email? View it as a Web page. http://content.govdelivery.com/bulletins/gd/USFSA-83624
FSA COUNTY COMMITTEE NOMINATIONS START JUNE 15
06/01/2011 03:34 PM EDT
NEWS - Farm Service Agency
Public Affairs Staff
Room 308
200 4th St SW Fed Bldg
Huron, SD 57350
For immediate release
FSA COUNTY COMMITTEE NOMINATIONS START JUNE 15
HURON, SD, June 1, 2011 - Craig Schaunaman, State Executive Director of USDA's Farm Service Agency (FSA) in South Dakota announced that county committee election nominations begin June 15, 2011. Farmers, ranchers and landowners are encouraged to nominate candidates to serve on their local FSA county committee by the August 1, 2011 deadline.
Elected county committee members serve a three-year term and are responsible for making decisions on FSA disaster, conservation, commodity, and price support programs, as well as other important federal farm program issues.
"County committee members are a valuable asset because they are local producers who participate in FSA programs themselves and have a direct connection to farmers and ranchers in the local area,” said Schaunaman.
Producers may nominate themselves or others as candidates. Organizations that represent minority and women farmers and ranchers may also nominate candidates. Nominees must participate in a program administered by FSA, be eligible to vote in a county committee election, and reside in the local administrative area (LAA) in which the person is a candidate. To become a nominee, eligible individuals must sign form FSA-669A. The form and more information about county committee elections are available online at: www.fsa.usda.gov/elections.
“It is important that the county committee reflects the demographics and agricultural interests of the area these individuals represent,” Schaunaman said. “I strongly encourage all producers, including women, minority and beginning farmers and ranchers to participate in the nomination and election process,” he said.
County committees are comprised of three to five members elected by local producers. All newly elected county committee members and alternates will take office January 2, 2012.
Nomination forms must be postmarked or received in the local USDA Service Center by close of business on August 1, 2011.
For more information about county committees, please contact your local FSA office or go online at www.fsa.usda.gov.
Additional information about the acreage reporting process or programs administered by FSA may be obtained by contacting your local FSA office or on the web at www.fsa.usda.gov.
#
USDA is an equal opportunity provider, employer and lender. To file a complaint of discrimination, write to USDA, Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights, Office of the Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights, 1400 Independence Avenue, S.W., Stop 9410, Washington, DC 20250-9410, or call toll-free at (866) 632-9992 (English) or (800) 877-8339 (TDD) or (866) 377-8642 (English Federal-relay) or (800) 845-6136 (Spanish Federal-relay). USDA is an equal opportunity provider and employer.
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On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Pontus Granström <lepontus@gmail.com> wrote:You're seriously trying to defend such a flawed study. I can barely
> Gwern, I am talking about the research I have posted here that you very
> nicely avoid to deal with. The research done on speed RAPM, the research
> done on "reasoning speed" and so on. Besides, even if half dropped out,
> those who didn't improved more than chance can give them credit for.
believe it. This, among other things, is why I don't pay much
attention to you. (There's a lot of worthless discussion on this ML,
and I use the mute button liberally.)
Yes, you've posted a bunch of research of questionable relevance, all
of which that I bothered to read was about correlations - correlations
existing *before* any intervention like dual n-back. Which is exactly
what I've never contested, and adds nothing to the question of whether
dual n-back increases IQ or just speed on BOMAT/RAPM, and your belief
that they prove it is sheer question-begging. I have said all this
before.
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
--
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You are subscribed to TX - Press Releases for USDA Farm Service Agency.
This information has recently been updated, and is now available. Having trouble viewing this email? View it as a Web page. http://content.govdelivery.com/bulletins/gd/USFSA-83625
USDA Reminds Producers to File Adjusted Gross Income Consent Forms with the IRS
06/01/2011 03:25 PM EDT
U.S. Department of Agriculture, Texas Farm Service Agency
PO Box 2900
College Station, Texas - 77841
http://www.fsa.usda.gov/tx
USDA Reminds Producers to File Adjusted Gross Income Consent Forms with the IRS
(COLLEGE STATION, TX) – June 1, 2011 - USDA Texas Farm Service Agency (FSA) Executive Director Juan M. Garcia reminds producers that, in order to receive USDA program payments, each payment recipient must have an Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) verification consent form on file with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS).
The consent form authorizes IRS to verify for FSA whether a payment recipient’s AGI meets the eligibility requirements for FSA programs. The form became a requirement for payment eligibility beginning with the 2009 crop year, however many program participants have not complied with this requirement.
"IRS and USDA reports show that, nationwide, FSA is still missing the required consent forms from many producers for 2009 and 2010," said Garcia. "In order to avoid an interruption of program payments, producers need to check their business records and turn these forms in to the IRS immediately if they have not done so already," he said.
IRS requires written consent from all individuals or legal entities before verification of the average AGI can be provided to USDA. Individuals must submit form CCC-927and legal entities must submit form CCC-928. Without these forms on file, producers will not receive USDA program payments.
Garcia further clarifies that these consent forms are required for payments received from the Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) as well as those received through FSA. Completed forms must be returned to the IRS.
For more information on AGI eligibility requirements or the AGI verification process, contact your local FSA office.
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No, but science proper doesn't deal with "causation". In fact, there
is no such thing as causation strictly speaking (if anyone wants to
argue this, let me take them to a pub and play billiards) - just
reliable correlations given a set equivalent initial conditions and
parameters. Less reliable correlations hint at a plurality of
influential factors.
As for conscientiousness, yes, that _certainly_ positively correlates
with continued involvement with a task. Lazy bums or underachievers
are a prime example of who don't possess conscientiousness and don't
engage in tasks that they may or may not be able to fulfill or
repeatedly engage in over extended periods of time. Furthermore,
conscientiousness positively correlates (significantly) with academic
performance - music training wouldn't be a far leap from this.
argumzio
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While we're on the topic, Marginal Revolution* has covered the press
release (at a different URL):
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/06/does-this-reliably-increase-your-fluid-intelligence.html
MR can drive a fair bit of traffic, so it's nice to see.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_Revolution_%28blog%29
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
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On May 29, 7:22 pm, "Mike L." <cool2bwi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I suppose I just wanted to incite a little bit of feedback from you
> guys. What do you think; Might DNB enhance intuition?
--
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On May 31, 9:21 pm, "D. K. Ohms" <311442185795...@gmail.com> wrote:
> we know that no one here
> has an IQ of 180 or so
>
> Really? You claim perfect knowledge of everyone's IQ scores? How much
> novel BS are we supposed to swallow here?
>
> Ohms
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The.Fourth.Deviation. wrote:
> > If what you all are suggesting is true, it means that there is a WM/GF
> > max that humans can attain, and that people here must be near that
> > max, and therefore untrainable by DNB. But we know that no one here
> > has an IQ of 180 or so, so therefore why should we think that no one
> > can improve? In addition, what exactly is this IQ point that people
> > are suggesting prevents one from experiencing benefits? I think that
> > this argument is very tenuous...
>
> > On May 31, 1:48 am, "The.Fourth.Deviation." <davidsky...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > That's not necessarily so. I don't remember seeing anything in Jaeggi
> > > suggesting that individuals who scored high initially did not
> > > significantly improve. The headline of a study supporting this must be
> > > "High IQ individuals have less to gain from brain training". But so
> > > far, most studies just show that it increases performance or increases
> > > efficiency of PFC. A person may lose 5 pounds of weight, but looking
> > > in the mirror feel as if they still look the same. How do we know
> > > these high aptitude individuals do not merely discount results? At
> > > this juncture there is no research I know of which suggests to that to
> > > be the case.
>
> > > Plus there is some confounding of ideas here. A person with higher
> > > testosterone will be initially stronger, and have more potential than
> > > someone with less testosterone. I know of no reason to think that
> > > intelligence does not work similarly, and as I mentioned, no research
> > > I know of suggests this either.
>
> > > On May 31, 1:34 am, brain train <brain.train...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > completely agree with Milestones- people with high potential (currently
> > > > hidden) who are being pulled down on IQ measure due WM issues are the ones
> > > > who are likely to benefit most from DNB.
> > > > i also think that these are the same people who must be looking around to
> > > > find a solution to their problems from different sources like- forums like
> > > > this forum, scientific magazines, research papers, brain-training tools,
> > > > books etc. Reason being that they have a hint that they are operating below
> > > > their potential.
>
> > > > On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:06 AM, milestones <wgweathe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On May 31, 9:21 am, "The.Fourth.Deviation." <davidsky...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > First, everything is hard until your brain adapts to it.
>
> > > > > > Second, I personally conclude that .5 is a strong link between gf and
> > > > > > DNB, but it still leaves room for a lot of other factors, which is why
> > > > > > DNB only predicts part of gf. That is why people can achieve high N
> > > > > > levels, but still have a lower IQ. I believe that a person of IQ 100
> > > > > > can achieve levels 5+ through training because PIQ/GF is only one
> > > > > > aspect of DNB performance. And DNB can be learned, making it harder
> > > > > > for us to link performance with IQ. A newbie genius will most likely
> > > > > > be outperformed by a mediocre DNB devotee. I predict that a person of
> > > > > > IQ 100 could even achieve DNB 6 or 7, or higher, after sustained
> > > > > > training efforts.
>
> > > > > One thing to note, though as I have many times in this group. There is
> > > > > a difference between a person with a average/normal IQ versus someone
> > > > > who may be functioning at average IQ but has greater potential and who
> > > > > may in fact have an IQ in excess (or far in excess) of what they are
> > > > > testing at. Their performance could be depressed by learning
> > > > > disabilities, ADHD, depression, schizophrenia, manic depression, or a
> > > > > number of things which WM training -- along with other interventions
> > > > > --- may help in varying degrees. For someone without any impediments
> > > > > to their potential, interventions like DNB are most likely far less
> > > > > efficacious and IQ will likely move less (since day to day functioning
> > > > > and theoretical potential are already close together). This could be a
> > > > > person of average intelligence or a gifted individual. If I had to
> > > > > guess, this group seems to attract people with above average
> > > > > intelligence but who are not living up their potential for the
> > > > > aforementioned reasons. For me, prior to training, my WM was mediocre
> > > > > compared to my long term memory, which was quite good, so DNB has been
> > > > > an optimal intervention. My example shows that if someone has strong
> > > > > long term memory, and comparably lower WM, then DNB might help
> > > > > functioning a lot. But then, not everyone will experience this, and
> > > > > other interventions may be preferable to DNB depending on the issues
> > > > > the person is dealing with.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > > > > "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> > > > > To post to this group, send email to brain-training@googlegroups.com.
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > > brain-training+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training?hl=en.
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It could be the case that more amazing benefits are had from level 8
to level 9, for example. Or D10B, if anyone reaches that. Or the
benefits could decrease with each level, if they work like most other
forms of human adaptation. I am interested to hear what people at D7B
+ think about training at these levels.
On May 31, 7:52 pm, Arky <kenneth.bruskiew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The way that I see this squeaking by is related to this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus_or_Minus_Two
>
> If working memory capacity can get only to 7 +/- 2 or 4 +/- 2 then it
> would make sense to stop at n = 6 or 7, as you've reached this limit.
>
> The thing is, we're not holding explicitly 7 items, despite that being
> the N level. Because we're working, usually, spatial and audio memory,
> it's more like 14 items. So I do not know.
>
> On May 31, 2:06 am, "The.Fourth.Deviation." <davidsky...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > After doing some research here, I have come to the conclusion that
> > benefits from DNB must begin to rapidly taper off at 7N or 8N.
> > Therefore, I think these are the proper times to begin to add more
> > stimuli.
>
> > Hence a person achieving 7 or 8 N can then go to TNB and seek to
> > achieve 7 or 8 there, and then to QNB, ETC. This is merely a way to
> > reduce confusion around these modes, while sensibly accounting for the
> > presumably decreasing benefits of each N level attained.
>
> > The modes of crab N back, multi stim, combination N back, and
> > arithmetic N back, remain enigmatic.
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