if you didn't go to private school, you probably read a lot? what was your motivation to cultivate that talent? I guess the real channel for higher vocabulary is reading afterall. 1/being surrounded by educated adults and/or 2/reading --> during the critical childhood window. after a certain age it's not as easy to smoothly integrate words to your vocabulary and use certain sentence structures--they don't flow spontaneously to you, you have to put them together like lego blocks.
you could be intelligent but from a lower social class, and read during childhood to acquire a vast vocabulary. but you still need some real life practice and encouragement I think. I know intelligent people who come from the countryside and they can sound really awkward when they try to speak all nice, probably also because it sounds awkward to them that they're using those words. some people purposely avoid high level language in some circles, simply because it will be socially disadvantageous for them. it's a known thing that gifted kids downgrade their vocabulary in some circumstances--and in the long term this leads to a different language use and style --> use it or lose it, even if you had the potential for it at first. also a similar issue is that some people choose not to use a fancy vocabulary as a kind of *statement, to show they are not pedantic, and don't put value on class--and this can be smart sometimes. this can play in your favor in some contexts. it can facilitate cooperation, show you want to get the job done, together. this thinking could be the edge that propulsed the anglo world ahead in recent history.
to me the gifted kid downgrading his vocab in some context is the proof that spending a lot of time in certain environments will modulate your use of language, ceteris paribus. I think it's fair to say that language level is a marker of social class. you've got to be from a higher social class and/or have educated parents to evolve and maintain a high level vocabulary--have enough people around you who appreciate your vocabulary and won't make fun of you or socially exclude you because of the way you talk. if you're in a lower class environment it would be most of the time socially suicidal to go against the wave, and start using fancy words. also it's possible that there is some good to intelligent people speaking in simple words, that's probably the strength of the western world. I think it's also fair to say that no, jargon does not help communication but rather protects a cast, or a certain profession, from outsiders. testing heavily on Gc is a good way to exclude new comers because it doesn't test just intelligence but also time spent in a certain environment. any input welcome.
a question would be: does using a wider vocabulary help boost intelligence in children? would gifted kids from lower classes lose some smarts by avoiding fancy words? it's hard to tell. I would say for now: not more than playing an instrument. but this is a wild guess. any input welcome.
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 4:57 PM, ao <argumzio@gmail.com> wrote:
Mike, for the record, I've never been surrounded by anyone who writes
or talks like me; my family considers my "talents" a mystery (but they
aren't all that mysterious to me); and had the absolute joy of being
forced through the public education mill. On the last note, I was
offered the opportunity to skip two grades in kindergarten, but
declined the offer.
It is important to point out, in any case, that jargon arises almost
solely from people who _do not_ write well. There is, however, a
blurry distinction between jargon and field-specific terminology which
is used with the intent of describing things that otherwise could not
(obviously) be discussed otherwise; the domain of mathematics has many
disparate fields these days - so much so that one can work in a very
narrow field and find oneself still in need of study to understand
another mathematician in another field. Language is always an issue.
argumzio
> page is pretty interesting though:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_and_the_English_Languagehe sounds
On May 23, 3:36 pm, Mike <mikebk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whoisbambam, the order was just people I remember from this forum in the
> order they came to me. for you I wanted to say *last but not least, I don't
> know why it ended up being *and of course, which maybe doesn't sound nice
> enough. I think you're not the least intelligent here, I would put you
> toward the top. and I appreciate your posts. I think you might be much more
> intelligent than you think. you do write differently than argumzio, yes. but
> the ideas you bring to the discussions are far from uninteresting. I think
> you're a great contributer here.
>
> my point of view on higher language level and ability is that it mostly
> serves discrimination and exclusion purposes, it doesn't improve
> communication. it's a sign that you are intelligent, but also and mostly
> that you spent enough childhood time in private schools (surrounded by high
> iq and english native teachers) when you're still a sponge for words (you
> can have a high iq but be surrounded by low iqs during childhood, also).
> maybe that's why private schools exist, they are a good investment, because
> they give good language markers to children for later in life--along with
> giving them good contacts, but maybe the language aspect is even more
> important. personally I started learning english only in my early 20s a few
> years ago-- and even though I absolutely love that language and I speak it
> everyday, I don't think I can attain the level of argumzio, ever, without
> nano implants.
>
> so it's a natural social phenomena that during the evolution of languages,
> the elite will evolve markers to differentiate themselves from intruders.
> it's very effective, and that's how the world works. it served its purpose.
> maybe it's important that the high iqs stay together in group. but on the
> other hand, Albert Einstein didn't look smart when he spoke English--he will
> if you pay attention to what he says--but that's not flashy enough for most
> people, they just won't appreciate his ideas as much as flashy intellectual
> language use. most people are against good ideas at first. good ideas are
> hard to evaluate on the spot for most people. brain train also pointed out a
> very interesting idea: that jargon is also a protection from intruders in
> certain fields like law, but also in many others. pidgin languages are at
> the other end of the spectrum: languages made for communication, without any
> superfluous vocabulary. of course it can be imprecise sometimes. but overall
> it's not: communication with them can be just as accurate, even more because
> everyone understands (no lower iq cut from the conversation). I can totally
> see jargon as evil, and counterproductive. people seem to defend it on the
> basis that it is more precise, but I'm pretty sure that using simpler and
> more descriptive expressions will produce better communication than high
> level language or jargons. high level language protects the lower iqs in the
> elite social classes, and definitely prevents social mobility. it's good for
> the elite, but it's not good for the economy, that's cutting yourself from
> the advantages of the brain drain, something the US certainly didn't do.
>
> also what's interesting is that old established ideas already have words and
> sayings, ready made phrases for them; on the other hand if you try t express
> a new idea, it will have more chance to sound awkward and you will need to
> make gestures and awkward metaphors in order to get your point across, *also
> simply because because people don't have the concept already in their minds
> so it's harder for them to understand it. no handy ready-made smooth
> sounding expression to say it, and also, (as a consequence!) the bar is put
> higher for people to understand it. it may seem trivial to you, but when
> you think about it languages are filled with ready-made concepts that
> everyone know and think along with. really cultures are still very different
> today.
>
> so an emphasis on high level language would prevent social mobility and
> attracting high iqs from abroad, and I would argue, would also tend to
> prevent the flow of new ideas from mixing with the old ones.
>
> one thing I love about american english but also british english to a
> certain extend, is that there is a kind of *no-bullshit *anti-intellectual
> culture embedded in it. yes even british english. to me this is not
> unrelated to its success in science and commerce--in a pattern mostly
> opposite to that of the countries of continental europe which them have a
> very different culture, more pedantic to sum it up in 1 word. there is a
> good quote I remember from George Orwell, where he basically said *don't use
> big words when you can use simple ones. but I can't find it quickly. this
> blowing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqV-kx2ClXUit's incredible and it> like a pretty sharp guy reading this. I also remember a letter by Darwin
> where he complained that he wasn't concise enough and to-the-point.
>
> in conclusion I think I would argue that English became simpler (evolved
> away from a level of complexity similar to that ot continental europe
> languages) as result of a pre-existing *openenss and *an appreciation that
> ideas count more than wordiness. maybe it was 1/the result of the
> interaction of different dialects within a territory, maybe it was 2/that
> populations in britain had a natural tendency toward social mobility because
> of high iqs being fairly evenly sparsed across the country--this is
> speculation. of course increased commerce and exchanges maybe made english
> even simpler and pidgin-like during the expansion of the british empire and
> after, but something was there in the first place for that culture to go
> down that path (maybe just because it was an island and closer to north
> america). to me this is a sign of intelligence, or at least a certain type
> of intelligence--but it is also a cultural trait that got established maybe
> in part because of chance. germany or france could have catched it but they
> didn't, they retained the verbose-pendantic-loving cultural trait. to me
> this appreciation that ideas count more than wordiness is also not
> completely unrelated to aspects of protestantism. it's a cultural trait and
> it's linked to commerce and northern europe. I'm not sure what triggered
> what though. any input about this is welcome.
>
> one question I've been asking myself for a while was if britain had been
> attracting high iqs from continental europe before the US did. I think it's
> plausible, and I read signs of it, but I don't know how important it was.
> btw semi-unrelated but look at this map I saw a while ago. I found it mind
> answers a few questions about history, when you know that CO2 emission are a
> good marker for economic growth and that economic growth is a good marker
> for iq (coupled with certain cultural traits and policies). any input
> welcome.
>
> tags: wordiness, protestantism, social mobility, history of CO2 emissions.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...> On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 3:36 PM, whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > well, it was a GUESS, you know.
>
> > it is hard to say with you three.............
>
> > i know a sign of IQ is 'open-ness'........but once or twice you
> > considered some things (yeah, i forgot the details) that seemed a
> > little off the wall crazy............
>
> > because of this, i lowered your IQ.
>
> > :)
>
> > perhaps it is just a lack of experience, naivetity or whatever, who
> > knows...........
>
> > when it comes to pure IQ tests, i believe you are probably first or
> > second on the list............
>
> > but in my GUESSING, I have lowered your raw number based on my
> > experience with you...........
>
> > to be honest, the enitire concept of this is moronic,
> > really............
>
> > it is less than subjective IMO
>
> > it is meaningless
>
> > it changes nothing..........
>
> > i believe all three of you to be at 135 and higher..............if it
> > is any concilation..........
>
> > On May 20, 1:32 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think it can be hard to pinpoint the IQ from what people post, besides
> > > some people already posted their scores, I got scores from 110-160 (no
> > > joke). But I do think that test anxiety when it comes to spatial/visual
> > > problems is a major reason behind my rather volatile performance. Never
> > the
> > > less, as for brain training in general, it's important that everyone
> > > benefits to the discussion as this will make the forum more interesting
> > > for more people and expand the rather "small world" of n-backers.
>
> > > On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 7:39 PM, whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Mike,
>
> > > > you have mine in the right order........you mentioned whoisbambam
> > > > last........as would be my IQ in that list of names...........
>
> > > > I accept this, of course, and it is why I try to enhance my mind in
> > > > the first place......if anybody needs it, I do.
>
> > > > I am not trying to belittle the rest, but based on what i have read, I
> > > > would personally put Argumzio and Likeprestige at the top
>
> > > > After that, it gets more difficult, but probly Pontus......i would
> > > > have to read their posts again (lol, which is why i am at the bottom)
> > > > to formulate a better opinion (like at least 40posts by each)
>
> > > > On May 19, 6:54 pm, Mike <mikebk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > we should all try to guess everyone's IQ here. :)
> > > > > Ailambris
> > > > > Colin
> > > > > Pontus
> > > > > Argumzio
> > > > > Cev
> > > > > Likeprestige
> > > > > Christopher Dzialo
> > > > > Paul
> > > > > Gwern
> > > > > Milestone
> > > > > Jtotto
> > > > > Bofu
> > > > > Arkang3l
> > > > > Four Sigma
> > > > > and of course Whoisbambam
>
> > > > > (all these people and many others made some really interesting
> > comments
> > > > > here! thanks, it's always interesting to read you!)
>
> > > > > we should make a form-questionnaire and calculate average results for
> > > > > everyone. I will be curious to know how much IQ you give *me*??? fun
> > :P.
> > > > it
> > > > > would be interesting to compare evaluations
>
>
> read more »
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